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1 1
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 3
EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 4
---------------------------------------x 5
JOHN PADBERG, CLIFFORD PAOLILLO, and RASHID AHMED, individually and on 6
behalf of all others similarly situated, 7 Plaintiffs, Case No.
Civ. 2000 (RJD) 8 vs. 9
DIANE MCGRATH-MCKECHNIE, RUDOLPH W. GIULIANI, JOSEPH MCKAY, MATTHEW
DAUS, 10
HARRY RUBINSTEIN, ELLIOT SANDER, HARVEY GIANNOULIS, MARVIN GREENBERG,
RAMONA 11
WHALEY, and THE LIMOUSINE COMMISSION, 12 Defendants. 13
---------------------------------------x 14
15 March
23, 2005 9:41
a.m. 16
Videotaped Deposition of
RUDOLPH W. 17 GIULIANI, held at the offices of
GIULIANI PARTNERS LLC, 5 Times Square, 18 Sky, a Notary Public of
the State of New 19 20
21
22
23
24
25
2 1
2
A P P E A R A N C E S: 3 DANIEL L. ACKMAN, ESQ. 4 Attorney for Plaintiffs 6 7 -and- 8 ISAAC GODINGER, ESQ. 9
10
11 NEW YORK CITY LAW DEPARTMENT 12 OFFICE OF THE CORPORATION COUNSEL 13 Attorneys for Defendants 15 16 BY:
DANA BIBERMAN, ESQ. 17
18
19
20
ALSO PRESENT: 21 DEVERELL WRITE, Videographer 22 GIULIANI PARTNERS LLC 23 DANIEL S. CONNOLLY, ESQ. 24 RACHEL GOLDMAN, ESQ. 25
3 1
2 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND
AGREED, 3 by and between the attorneys for the 4 respective parties herein, that
filing 5 and sealing be and the same are
hereby 6 waived. 7 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND
AGREED 8 that all objections, except as to the
form 9 of the question, shall be reserved to
the 10 time of the trial. 11 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND
AGREED 12 that the within deposition may be
sworn 13
to and signed before any officer authorized 14 to administer an oath, with the same
force 15 and effect as if signed and sworn to
before 16 the Court. 17 18 19 20 21 - o0o - 22 23 24 25
4 1
2 MS. BIBERMAN: I want to say one 3 thing before we start the
questioning. I 4 would like that the entire deposition
at 5 this point be taken pursuant to the 6 Stipulation and Protective Order that
was so 7 ordered by Judge Gold on September
10, 2003, 8 until and unless such time as Judge
Gold 9 finds otherwise. 10 MR. ACKMAN: What Order is that? 11 MS. BIBERMAN: It's the Protective 12 Order that was signed by both parties
in 13 September of 2003, to have documents
and 14 testimony remain confidential unless
the 15 Court finds otherwise. 16 So, at the point that the Court
is 17 able to review the deposition -- 18 MR. ACKMAN: Do you have an extra 19 copy of that Order? 20 MS. BIBERMAN: No.
I have one copy 21 of this Order, but I'm sure you have
a copy. 22 MR. ACKMAN: What's the date of it? 23 MS. BIBERMAN: It was so ordered by 24 the Court on September 10, 2003. 25 MR. ACKMAN: All right.
5 1 R. Giuliani 2
R U D O L P H W. G I U L I A N I, 3 called as a witness, having been duly
sworn 4 by a Notary Public, was examined and 5 testified as follows: 6
EXAMINATION BY 7
MR. ACKMAN: 8 Q.
Good morning, Mr. Giuliani. 9 You're a lawyer; right? 10 A.
Yes, I am. 11 Q.
And you served as a federal 12
prosecutor; correct? 13 A.
I did. 14 Q.
And you served as a high official 15
in the Justice Department; is that right? 16 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 17 form of the question. 18 Q.
You can answer. 19 A.
I was Associate Attorney General. 20 Q.
You were a partner in a 21
law firm; is that correct? 22 A.
Yes. More than one. 23 Q.
You were a United States Attorney; 24
is that right? 25 A.
That's correct.
6 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Have you ever taught law? 3 A.
Never really officially. I've 4
given lectures on law. I've
never taught a 5
whole course or been a professor. 6 Q.
What subjects did you teach? 7 A.
I probably gave lectures on trial 8
practice. 9 Q.
Anything else? 10 A.
I've appeared in classes. I 11
answered questions. Gave a
lecture on law at 12
13
Not actually teaching a course. 14 Q.
You're currently employed as a 15
consultant; is that right? 16 A.
That's correct. That's what
this 17 business is, yes. 18 Q.
But you're still active in 19
politics; is that correct? 20 A.
Yes. 21
Q. And occasionally you'll
campaign 22
for other office seekers? 23 A.
Yes. 24 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection. 25 A.
I campaign for office. I don't
know 7 1 R. Giuliani 2
about "occasionally."
Yes, I do. 3 Q.
Often? 4 A.
You would have to look at the 5
number and decide for yourself. 6 Q.
When was the last time you 7
campaigned for another office seeker? 8 A.
I can't remember. A month ago. 9 Q.
What did you say? 10 A.
Maybe a month ago. 11 Q.
You occasionally raise funds for 12
other office seekers; is that correct? 13 A.
That's correct. 14 Q.
And between 1993 and 2001, you were 15
Mayor of the City of 16
correct? 17 A.
Between...? 18 Q.
1993 and 2001. 19 A.
Yes. Officially, it would be
1994 20
to 2001. January 1, 1994, was
my first day in 21 office. I was elected in 1993. 22 Q.
Until January 1, 2002? 23 A.
Yes. 24 Q.
When you were Mayor, did you keep a 25
desk diary or a calendar?
8 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
I didn't keep a desk diary. 3 Q.
What about a calendar? 4 A.
My secretary did. 5 Q.
So your secretary kept a calendar 6
for you? 7 A.
Yes. 8 Q.
And how was it kept? Was it on
a 9 computer, on a paper or what? 10
A. It was kept on paper, but
given 11
technology, anything kept on paper is probably 12
also kept on a computer. 13 But I mean, the way I would see
it 14
would be on paper. 15 Q.
Was it in a binder of some kind? 16 A.
Yes. Yes. Ultimately, it would be 17
in a binder. I would see it as
a set of 18
papers. 19 Q.
And do you still have those
20 calendars? 21 A.
I'm not sure if I do. 22 Q.
Do you know who has them? 23 A.
Well, the Giuliani Library probably 24
has them. 25 Q.
What's the Giuliani Library?
9 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
It's a compilation of the papers of 3
my administration. 4 Q.
Where is that? 5 A.
I don't know where it is 6
physically. It's with the City
of 7
and with a private company that's cataloging 8
the papers. 9 Which has which right now, I
don't 10
know, I've never -- I don't know physically 11
where it is. 12 Q.
So the City of 13
of your diary; is that correct? 14 A.
I believe so. I'm not
absolutely 15
certain of that. 16
RQ MR. ACKMAN: All right.
We've 17 already requested production of that
diary 18 for November of 1999. And we'll reiterate 19 that request. 20 MS. BIBERMAN: Take it under 21 advisement. Please put it in writing. 22 MR. ACKMAN: We've already put it in 23 writing. 24 MS. BIBERMAN: Please. 25 Q.
In your career as a lawyer, did you
10 1 R. Giuliani 2
come to understand that, as a general rule, a 3
person is entitled to a hearing before he is 4
deprived of an important property right by the 5
State? 6 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 7 form of the question. 8 Can you please rephrase it. 9 MR. ACKMAN: No. 10 A.
I don't think I can really answer the 11
question in that form. 12 Q.
You never heard that as a general 13
rule, that a person is entitled to a hearing 14
before he's deprived of life, liberty or 15 property? 16 A.
I could not really answer that 17
question. There are so many
ways in which you 18
can analyze that proposition that I couldn't 19
really answer the question that way. 20 Q.
You don't know a general rule? 21 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 22 form of the question. 23 A.
I don't think I can answer the 24
question the way it's phrased.
It's sort of 25
an argumentative question anyway. 11 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Have you ever been deposed before? 3 A.
Sure. Yes. 4 Q.
How many times? 5 A.
I have no idea. 6 Q.
More than five? 7 A.
Yes. 8 Q.
How many times have you been 9
deposed for what you -- in your capacity as 10
Mayor? 11 A.
I don't know. 12 Q.
More than once? 13 A.
Yes. 14 Q.
Can you tell me the other times? 15 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 16 form of the question. 17 Do you mean in what other
context? 18 Q.
What other cases were you deposed in? 19 A.
I was -- 20 MS. BIBERMAN: Object to the 21 relevance of the question. 22 A.
I was deposed in -- I was deposed
23
in a case involving the -- the structure near 24
25 I was deposed in a case
involving 12 1 R. Giuliani 2
the disciplining of two fire fighters and a 3
police officer. 4 I was deposed in a case involving
a 5 street artist. 6 Those are the three I can
remember. 7
There may have been more. 8 Q.
Have you ever testified in court? 9 A.
Yes. 10 Q.
In your capacity as Mayor? 11 A.
Not during the time that I was 12
Mayor. 13 Q.
But for actions that you conducted 14
as Mayor? 15 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 16 form of the question. 17 Q.
In cases relating to your service as 18
Mayor, did you ever testify in court? 19 A.
Yes. 20 Q.
What were those cases? 21 A.
One was the case involving the two 22
fire fighters and the police officer. 23 And the other was -- was the
one 24
involving the structure near 25
But that was actually completion of a
13 1 R. Giuliani 2 deposition, if I recall
correctly. But it was 3
in court. 4 Q.
Have you kept your schedule
clear 5
for after 12:30 today? 6 A.
I have not. 7 Q.
When did you make an appointment 8
that superseded it? 9 A.
I don't know. 10
Q. You don't know when you
made it? 11 A.
No. 12 Q.
Was it over the weekend? 13 A.
I have no idea when I made -- my 14
schedule is so tight, and there are so many 15
things on it, I have -- I really don't know 16
when particular things get on the schedule. 17 Q.
Was it prior to Friday? 18 A.
I don't recall. 19 MS. BIBERMAN: Asked and answered. 20 Q.
What is the appointment? 21
DI MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
22 Relevance. 23 And I direct you not to answer.
24 MR. ACKMAN: You're directing him not 25 to answer?
14 1 R. Giuliani 2 MS. BIBERMAN: Yes. 3 Q.
Mr. Giuliani, on or about November 3, 4
1999, did you learn that Danny Glover had made 5
a complaint to the New York City Taxi and 6
Limousine Commission? 7 A.
I don't -- I don't remember. 8
Q. Do you remember Danny
Glover making 9
a complaint to the TLC? 10 A.
I don't remember it in that form. 11 Q.
Do you remember anything that Danny 12
Glover made some kind of statement concerning 13
taxis in 14 A.
I do. 15 Q.
Was that around November 3, 1999? 16 A.
I don't know the date. 17 Q.
All right. Did you know at the 18 time who Danny Glover was? 19 A.
Yes. 20 Q.
Who was he? 21 A.
An actor. 22 Q.
A famous actor? 23 A.
Yes. 24 Q.
What was the nature of his 25 complaint?
15 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
My best recollection of it now, 3
which is not complete, is that he had not -- 4
that a cab driver had refused to take him, and 5
that this had happened to him on other 6
occasions. Maybe a family
member. I don't 7
recall. 8 Q.
Did he allege that he had been 9
refused on account of his race? 10 A.
I believe he did. 11 Q.
He's black; right? 12 A.
Yes. 13 Q.
Now, did he follow through on that 14 complaint? 15 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 16 form of the question. 17 A.
I don't remember. 18 Q.
Did he appear at a hearing to testify 19
against the driver who allegedly refused him? 20 A.
I don't know. 21 Q.
How did you learn of this 22 complaint? 23 A.
I don't remember. 24 Q.
You don't know who told you? 25 A.
I don't recall exactly how I
16 1 R. Giuliani 2
learned it. 3 Q.
Was it from the newspapers? 4 MS. BIBERMAN: Asked and answered. 5 A.
I don't know. 6 Q.
What did you do when you first learned 7
of this complaint? 8 A.
I can't remember exactly how I 9
first learned of it, so I can't tell you what 10
I did when I first learned of it. 11 Q.
It's fair to say that this com -- 12
Mr. Glover's complaint got a lot of press 13
attention; is that right? 14 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 15 form of the question. 16 A.
It got some. I don't know what
you 17
consider "a lot." I
mean, it got some press 18
attention, yes. 19 Q.
It was reported in all the 20
papers certainly; right? 21 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 22 form of the question. 23 A.
I don't know that. It wasn't
reported 24
in every one. It was
reported. And it was 25
well known.
17 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
And it was reported in newspapers 3
around the country, wasn't it? 4 A.
I don't know that. I mean, I
would 5
just be assuming that. 6 Q.
And it was even reported 7
internationally, wasn't it? 8 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection. 9 A.
I don't know that. 10 Q.
During the week of November 3, 199 -- 11
I'll represent to you that his complaint was 12
made on November 3, 1999. And
if you want, I 13
can show you documents to that effect. 14 But, you will accept that 15 representation? 16
A. Sure. It might help if I saw the 17
documents. 18 Q.
All right. 19 A.
To refresh my recollection. 20 Q.
Here's just one. This is an AP 21 story dated November 3, 1999. It's time 22
stamped 2:39. And reports on
the Glover 23 incident. 24 MS. BIBERMAN: Has this already 25 been marked as an exhibit? 18 1 R. Giuliani 2 MR. ACKMAN: No.
It isn't. It's 3 merely to refresh his recollection. 4 If he wants to accept my 5 representation that it's November 3,
1999, 6 that he made the complaint, that's
fine. 7 We'll move on. 8 A.
Okay. 9 Q.
Did you meet with anyone to discuss 10
Mr. Glover's complaint after he made it? 11 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 12 form of the question. 13 A.
I have some recollection of a meeting 14
with -- with the Taxi and Limousine 15
Commissioner, and with the Police 16
Commissioner, and some of their 17
representatives a few days after this.
But I 18
couldn't tell you what day. 19 Q.
You met with the Taxi and Limousine 20
Commissioner? 21 A.
Well, yes. And some of her
staff, 22
and with the Police Commissioner.
There was 23
at least one meeting with them about this. 24
Q. After Glover made his complaint? 25 A.
Yes. Af
-- yes.
19 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Now, that was -- by "commissioner" 3
you mean the chairwoman of the Commission, 4
Diane McGrath-McKechnie? 5 A.
I do, yes. 6 Q.
And the Police Commissioner at the 7 time was Howard Safir; right? 8 A.
Correct. 9 Q.
Now, who was at this meeting other 10
than Mr. Safir and Ms. Diane 11
McGrath-McKechnie? 12 MS. BIBERMAN: Asked and answered. 13 A.
There were other people there.
I 14
can't id -- I can't tell you who they were. 15 Q.
Was Matt Daus there? 16 A.
I'm not sure. He could have
been. 17 Q.
Was Stephen Louis there? 18 A.
I'm not sure. 19 Q.
Do you know who these two people 20
are? 21 A.
I know who Matt Daus is. 22 Q.
Do you know who Stephen Louis is? 23
A. I'm not sure I do. 24 Q.
Was Randy Mastro there? 25 A.
I don't know.
20 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Where was the meeting held? 3 A.
It was either held in -- in the
4
conf -- Mayor's conference room or in the -- 5
or in my office. 6 Q.
And what was said? 7
A. They were reporting to me a 8
proposed program, a program that they wanted 9
to put into effect to deal with this.
To deal 10
with these incidents of drivers not taking 11
people because of race, or drivers not taking 12
people because of other issues, destination. 13
Other things. 14 A program that they had put 15
together to try to deal with this, and try to, 16
you know, either end it or significantly 17
reduce it. 18 Q.
Who put together the program? 19 A.
It was presented to me by the Taxi 20
and Limousine Commission or by the 21
Commissioner and by the Police Department. 22 Q.
By Diane McGrath-McKechnie? 23 A.
Correct. By -- it was presented
by 24
Diane and her staff, and Howard Safir.
And -- 25
and people from his staff.
21 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Now, did you take any notes of this 3
meeting? 4 A.
I don't believe so. 5 Q.
Did you direct anyone else to take 6
notes? 7 A.
I don't believe so. 8 Q.
Did anyone take notes? 9 A.
I wouldn't know that.
10 Q. Was it tape-recorded or 11
memorialized in any way? 12 A.
I don't believe it was 13
tape-recorded. No one
intentionally -- as far 14
as I know, it wasn't tape-recorded. 15 Q.
Did anyone write a memo about what 16
was said at this meeting? 17 A.
I don't know. 18 Q.
Did you direct anyone to write a 19 memo? 20 A.
I don't believe so. 21 Q.
Did they have a memo for you 22
outlining the program? 23 A.
I can't recall. They had --
they 24
had documents, but I can't recall if they had 25
an actual memo outlining the program or not.
22 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
What documents were these? 3 A.
Statistics about prior situations, 4
how many alleged refusals there were, what had 5
been done about it. Things like
that. 6 Q.
Were there any lawyers at this 7
meeting, aside from you? 8
A. I believe so. 9 Q.
Who were the lawyers? 10 MS. BIBERMAN: Asked and answered. 11 A.
I believe there was a lawyer 12
representing the Taxi and Limousine 13
Commission, and there were other people at the 14
meeting, but I can't tell you exactly who they 15
were. 16 Q.
Was there a lawyer on your staff 17
there? 18 A.
I'm not sure. 19 Q.
Was Eric Sorensen there? 20 A.
Could be, but the only recollection 21
that I have right now is I can remember Diane, 22
I can remember Howard, and I can remember they 23
had people with them. But I
can't tell you -- 24
and I did. But I can't tell you
exactly which 25
people.
23 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
And you know who Eric Sorensen is; 3 right? 4 A.
Yes. 5 Q.
He was on your staff or a Deputy 6
Mayor? Who was he? 7 A.
He was on the staff, Deputy Mayor. 8
And, therefore, he'd be on my staff in that 9 sense. But he -- he worked for the Deputy 10
Mayor. 11 Q.
Do you recall if anyone from the 12
Corporation Counsel was there? 13 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
Asked 14 and answered. 15 A.
I don't recall. 16 Q.
Other than Mr. Daus, do you recall 17
anyone from the TLC Legal Department being 18
there? 19 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
20 Misrepresents his testimony. 21 Q.
Did you say Mr. Daus was there? 22 A.
I said I wasn't sure. 23 Q.
Are there -- anyone from the TLC 24
Legal Department -- was anyone -- I'll 25
withdraw that.
24 1 R. Giuliani 2 Was anyone from the TLC Legal 3
Department at this meeting? 4 A.
I believe there was. But I
can't 5
-- but I'm not absolutely certain. 6 Q.
After this meeting, did you
hold 7
another meeting? 8 A.
I'm not sure. I don't have a 9
recollection of another meeting.
There could 10
have been other meetings. 11 Q.
Okay. So that's the only
meeting 12
where you recall discussing the Glover 13 incident after it happened? 14 A.
That's the only one that I have,
15
you know, some kind of a distinct recollection 16
of. There may well have been
another meeting, 17
but the only one I can recall right now is one 18
-- is one particular time. 19 Q.
And you don't know if anyone 20
reduced anything that was said at that meeting 21
to writing? 22 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
Asked 23 and answered. 24 A.
I don't know. 25 Q.
But they did present some documents to
25 1 R. Giuliani 2
you about refusals? 3 A.
They actually showed me documents.
4
I don't think they actually presented them to 5 me.
Gave them to me. They showed
them to me. 6
I looked at them. I do -- I
have a 7 recollection of that. 8
RQ MR. ACKMAN: We'll request
9
production of those documents. 10 MS. BIBERMAN: Take it under 11 advisement. 12 Please put the request in
writing. 13 MR. ACKMAN: Okay. 14 Q.
At this meeting, did you discuss the 15
idea of suspending drivers without a hearing? 16 A.
I don't recall if that was 17
discussed at the meeting. The
only 18
recollection I could have is since that was 19
part of the final program, it must have been 20
discussed at this meeting. 21 Q.
Did you discuss the 22
constitutionality of doing that? 23 A.
I don't recall if it was discussed 24
in that form. 25 Q.
Did you discuss the idea of
26 1 R. Giuliani 2
revoking a driver's license for a first 3
refusal offense? 4 A.
I don't recall. 5 Q.
Did you discuss the legality of 6
doing that? 7 A.
I don't recall discussing it.
So I 8
can't tell you if we discussed the legality -- 9
I don't have a recollection of -- of that 10
being discussed. 11 Q.
Did you discuss TLC Rule 2-61, 12
which speaks to acts against the best interest 13
of the public? 14 A.
I don't recall. 15 Q.
Did you discuss -- did make a 16
comparison between refusals and drunk-driving 17
offenses? 18 A.
At that particular meeting? 19 Q.
Yes. 20 A.
I don't know. I don't know if
that 21
was discussed at that particular meeting. 22 Q.
At some other time, did you discuss 23
it? 24 A.
Well, I know it was discussed 25
because I watched the press conference the
27 1 R. Giuliani 2
other day to refresh my recollection.
I know 3
it was discussed then, so I assume if it was 4
discussed then, it was discussed before then. 5 But I can't tell you that I
have a 6
recollection of it being discussed at that 7
particular meeting. 8 Q.
I'm asking anytime prior to the 9
press conference, do you recall discussing the 10
idea of comparing refusals to drunk driving? 11 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 12 form of the question. 13 A.
Yes. I believe it was
discussed, 14
but I'm not sure if it was discussed at that 15
meeting. 16 Q.
You believe it was discussed, but 17
you don't have a specific recollection of it 18
being discussed? 19 A.
I don't have a specific 20
recollection of where it was discussed. And 21
I'm not sure it was discussed at that meeting. 22
It may have been. 23 Q.
Do you remember who you discussed 24
it with? 25 A.
I would again -- I would be -- I'd
28 1 R. Giuliani 2
have to assume that I discussed it with either 3
Diane or with Howard Safir, or one of their 4
representatives. 5 Q.
You're assuming it, but you don't 6
remember it? 7 A.
I don't have a distinct 8 recollection. 9
Q. Did you discuss the idea
of 10
charging taxi drivers with a violation of the 11
civil rights law? 12 MS. BIBERMAN: Are we now talking 13 about that one meeting? 14 Q.
At this meeting, first of all? 15 A.
I can't recall. 16 Q.
Did you discuss that topic at any time 17
prior to your press conference? 18 A.
I believe that I did. 19
Q. Do you know who you
discussed it 20
with? 21 A.
Again, I assume that I discussed it 22
with either Diane or with Howard. 23 Q.
But you don't remember doing it? 24 A.
I don't have a distinct 25
recollection of it.
29 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Did you discuss the idea of
3 charging taxi drivers with a
criminal 4 misdemeanor? 5 MS. BIBERMAN: Are you talking 6 about...? 7 MR. ACKMAN: At this -- at the 8 meeting that he's describing. 9 A.
I don't recall. 10 Q.
Did you discuss the penalties for 11
service refusals? 12 A.
I don't know. 13 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 14 form of the question. 15 A.
I don't remember. I don't
remember if 16
we did or didn't discuss it at that meeting. 17 Q.
When you say you don't remember 18
whether you discussed it at that meeting, you 19
also testified that was the only specific 20
meeting you remember. 21 Do you remember discussing that
22
topic at any time prior to your press 23 conference on November 10, 1999? 24 A.
I believe that I did. But I
can't 25
tell you now that I can tell you exactly what
30 1 R. Giuliani 2
meeting or -- I believe that I did have a 3 conversation about that. 4 Q.
Who did you discuss -- 5 A.
I don't have a distinct 6
recollection of -- I remember -- I remember a 7
meeting with the people that we've just 8
described. I remember that we
discussed this 9
topic of Danny Glover and what needed to be 10
done about it. I don't remember
the specifics 11
of the discussion. 12 Q.
By the way, was Diane 13
McGrath-McKechnie there in person or was she 14
on the phone? 15 A.
My recollection is she was there in 16 person. 17 Q.
Was she recently back from 18 vacation? 19 A.
I don't know that. 20 Q.
And do you know how many days 21
before November 10th this meeting occurred? 22 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
Asked 23 and answered. 24 A.
I don't. 25 Q.
Do you recall whether you discussed 31 1 R. Giuliani 2
whether it was permissible to couple 2-61 3
charges with refusal charges and, therefore, 4
revoke on the first offense? 5 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
Asked 6 and answered. 7 A.
I don't -- that -- I don't recall 8
that. 9 Q.
Did you discuss -- did you discuss 10
what the Administrative Code of the City of 11
12 A.
I don't recall that. 13 Q.
Did you discuss -- 14 A.
I don't know. I don't know if
we 15
did or we didn't. 16 Q.
Did you discuss the need to amend 17
the Administrative Code? 18 A.
I have -- I don't have a 19
recollection of whether we did or we didn't. 20 Q.
Did you discuss what the TLC's own 21
rules said about service refusals? 22 A.
I can't recall if we discussed that 23
specifically. 24
Q. Did you discuss the need
to amend 25
those rules?
32 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
I don't have a recollection. 3 Q.
But at the press conference you did 4
mention that there was a need to amend the 5
Administrative Code, didn't you? 6 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
7 If you want to
ask the Mayor -- 8 A.
Actually, I don't remember that. 9 MS. BIBERMAN: -- what he said at the 10 press conference, you should show him
the 11 press conference. 12 A.
I'd have to look at the press 13
conference to see if I did or didn't discuss 14
it. 15 Q.
I thought you said you just looked 16
at it the other day? 17 A.
I did. But I don't remember
that 18
part of it. 19 Q.
All right. We'll look at it
later. 20 Did you discuss the need --
whether 21
you should -- the TLC should add -- 22 Let me withdraw that. 23 Did you discuss whether the TLC
24
should seek points on a license in response to 25
a service refusal? 33 1 R. Giuliani 2 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 3 form of the question. 4 A.
I don't recall. 5 MS. BIBERMAN: What kind of points? 6 Q.
Did you discuss the need to amend the 7
law to enhance penalties for service refusals 8
in any way? 9 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection.
Asked 10 and answered. 11 A.
I don't have a recollection.
I'm 12
not sure. 13 Q.
Did you ever have any discussion 14
prior to your press conference with any other
15 TLC Commissioners other
than Diane 16
McGrath-McKechnie? 17 A.
I don't have a recollection of one. 18 Q.
Did you discuss at the meeting that 19
you just described the need to hold a meeting 20
of the TLC's Board of Commissioners? 21 A.
I don't recall that. 22 Q.
Did you discuss at this meeting the 23
need to hold a vote of the TLC's Board of 24
Commissioners? 25 A.
I don't recall that.
34 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
Okay. Did you discuss the need
to 3
comply with the notice and comment provisions 4
of CAPA? 5 A.
I don't know what CAPA -- you have 6
to tell me what CAPA is. 7 Q.
The City Administrative Procedure 8
Act. 9 A.
Okay. No. I don't recall 10
discussing it. 11 Q.
Did you discuss whether revoking a 12
license for a first refusal was an excessive 13
penalty or fine? 14 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 15 form of the question. 16 A.
I don't recall that. 17 Q.
Now, did you ever speak to the media 18
regarding the Glover complaint or the problem 19
of service refusals in the day or two after he 20
made that complaint? 21 A.
I may have. I don't -- you'd
have 22
to refresh my recollection. 23
Q. Did you say to a reporter
or 24
reporters that -- in words or substance, that 25
the TL -- that the City has a zero tolerance
35 1 R. Giuliani 2 policy as to cabbie service
refusals? 3 A.
I don't have a distinct 4
recollection of saying that.
But if you show 5
me something, it might refresh my 6 recollection. 7 Q.
All right. Let's see what we
can 8
do. 9 A.
It sounds like something I would 10
say. 11 Q.
I'll show you a newspaper article 12
-- 13 MR. ACKMAN: Why don't we mark 14 this one. 15 Mark it as Plaintiffs' Exhibit
150. 16 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 150,
Newspaper 17 article, marked for identification,
as of 18 this date.) 19 A.
Thank you. 20 It's not in quot
-- what you asked 21 me is not in quotations. 22 Q.
I'm asking if you recall saying it. 23 A.
It's sort of paraphrasing. 24 MS. BIBERMAN: Would you please 25 let him answer the question in full
before 36 1 R. Giuliani 2 you cut him off. 3 A.
I don't have a recollection of saying 4
it. But, I mean, I have no
reason to dispute 5
this. 6 Q.
All right. 7 A.
I could very well have said this. 8 Q.
You don't deny you said it? 9 A.
No. No, I don't deny that I
said 10
it. But if you're asking me do
I have a 11
distinct recollection of saying it, I don't. 12
But it sounds like something I would say. 13 Q.
All right. What did you mean by
14
that if you did -- assuming you said it, what 15
did you mean by "zero tolerance"? 16 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 17 form of the question. 18 A.
I'm sort of interpreting something I 19
can't remember exactly saying.
But it meant 20
that cabbies are not allowed to refuse 21
passengers based on race. 22 This is what this all -- this
is 23
the context in which this whole article is 24
written. So, I assume that's
what I meant by 25
it.
37 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
And this whole -- the Glover 3 complaint had to do with race, as
well; right? 4 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 5 form of the question. 6 A.
I believe it did, yes. Yes, I 7
think that was the basic thrust of this -- of 8
this whole complaint. 9 Well, this article certainly is
10
about that. 11 Q.
Did zero tolerance mean that their 12 license should be revoked? 13 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 14 form of the question. 15 A.
I can't interpret what it means.
It 16
means -- it means it's not permitted. 17 Q.
Do you know if the meeting that you 18
testified about came before or after you made 19
this comment? 20 A.
I don't know. 21 Q.
After the Glover incident, black 22
leaders called on the City to act; correct? 23 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 24 form of the question. 25 A.
Well, that's what the article is 38 1 R. Giuliani 2
about. That's what the article
says. 3 Q.
Do you recall that, though? 4 A.
Now that I read that, I recall -- I 5 recall people doing that, but I -- you
know, 6
the article is probably much more complete 7
than my recollection. 8 Q.
Do you recall Al Sharpton, among 9
others, saying that they would sue the Taxi 10
and Limousine Commission? 11 A.
I don't recall that. 12 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 13 form of the question. 14 Q.
You recall there being some kind of 15
response by black leaders even if you don't 16
recall exactly what it was? 17 A.
Yes, I do. I do, once I read
the 18
-- 19 What's the exhibit? 20 MS. BIBERMAN: 150. 21 A.
150. 22 Q.
So you do recall generally that there 23
was a response? 24 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 25 form of the question.
39 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
I think I've answered it the best I 3
can. 4 Q.
All right. 5
MR. ACKMAN: Let's mark this as 6 Plaintiffs' Exhibit 151. 7 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 151,
Article from 8 The New York Times, dated November 7,
1999. 9 The headline is: "After complaints by 10 actor, group will sue taxi
panel," marked 11 for identification, as of this date.) 12 A.
Is this a different article than 13
the other? 14 Q.
Yes. 15 A.
Okay. 16 MR. ACKMAN: Just for the record, 17 this is an article from the New York
Times, 18 dated November 7, 1999. The headline is: 19 "After complaints by actor,
group will sue 20 taxi panel." 21 A.
I read it. 22 Q.
Does this refresh your recollection 23
that black leaders threatened to sue the TLC 24
in response to the Glover incident? 25 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the
40 1 R. Giuliani 2 form of the question. 3 Q.
Or it is in response to the problem 4
that the Glover incident highlighted? 5 A.
I can't say that it refreshes my 6 recollection. I don't -- I have no reason to 7 dispute the -- what's said in the
article. 8
But I can't exactly remember that fact. 9 Q.
Just to be complete, you testified 10
about one meeting where Diane 11
McGrath-McKechnie and Howard Safir and others 12
were there, and that meeting took place in 13
City Hall; correct? 14 A.
I believe that's right.
Actually, 15
it could have taken place someplace else. I 16
remember meeting with them, talking to them at 17
least once. It may have been
more than once, 18
but I can remember meeting with them at least 19
once, and then meeting with them -- and 20
probably meeting with them again.
But I don't 21
have a distinct recollection. 22 Q.
I thought you testified the meeting 23
took place in the Mayor's conference room -- 24 A.
I believe it did. 25 Q.
-- or your office.
41 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
Correct. 3 Q.
Both were in City Hall; right? 4 A.
I believe that's right. I mean,
if 5
it turned out that it was someplace else, it 6
wouldn't shock me. 7 Q.
And just to be clear, do you recall 8
any other meeting where this was discussed? 9 A.
I do recall that it was discussed 10
more than that one time. But I
don't have a 11
distinct recollection of it. 12 Q.
So you wouldn't be able to say that 13
there was any other particular meeting where 14
it was discussed? 15 A.
Correct. I can't say that, but
I 16
couldn't rule that out, either. 17 Q.
As of November 1999, were service 18
refusals a new problem in the City of 19
20 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 21 form of the question. 22 You can answer. 23
A. No. I believe -- I believe my 24
recollection is, and these articles more or 25
less refresh that, that it was a long --
42 1 R. Giuliani 2 long-term -- long-standing problem. 3 Q.
As of November 1999, were you 4
familiar with the distinction between 5
destination refusals and bias refusals? 6
A. I'm -- I'm not sure that I
was. 7 Q.
What about a distinction between 8
destination refusals and race -- race-based 9
refusals? 10 A.
Do I know the difference or did I 11
-- was I aware of it? 12 Q.
Do you know it now? 13 A.
Sure. Sure. I understand the 14 difference. 15 Q.
And did you know that there was a 16
difference then? 17 A.
I don't know. I imagine I did,
but 18
I don't recall. 19 Q.
But at your press conference you 20
mentioned two different kinds; right? 21 A.
Please tell me when we are talking 22
about. 23 Q.
November 1999. I'm asking if
you 24
knew there was a difference between -- 25 A.
When in November of 1999? 43 1 R. Giuliani 2 Q.
What? 3 A.
When in November of 1999? 4 Q.
Anytime that month. Let's say 5
November 10, 1999, if you really want to make 6
a particular day about it. 7 Did you know there was a
difference 8
between a destination refusal and a racial or 9
bias refusal? 10
MS. BIBERMAN: Asked and answered. 11 A.
I believe that I did, yes. 12 Q.
At some point, you decided to act 13
in response to the Glover complaint; is that 14
correct? 15 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 16 form of the question. 17 A.
At some point, my administration 18
decided to act. Whether I was
the one who 19
initiated that, or someone else did, or -- I 20
mean, I certainly agreed that we should act. 21
I don't remember exactly how it was all 22
initiated. But yes, the answer
is yes. I 23
mean, at some point, as a collective group, we 24
decided to act. 25 Q.
Who is in this "collective group"?
44 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
Myself, the Taxi and Limousine 3
Commissioner, the Police Commissioner, some of 4
my staff, some of their staff. 5 Q.
So you didn't make the decision.
6
Is that your testimony? 7 A.
Ultimately, I approved the 8
decision, yes. 9 The decision about to act or
the 10
exact program? 11 Q.
Let's say the decision to act? 12 A.
Yes, I made that decision. We
had 13
to do something about it. 14 Q.
And the exact program? 15 A.
That was proposed by the Taxi and 16
Limousine Commission and the Police 17 Department, and I approved it. 18 Q.
All right. Before you made the 19
decision to act, did you consult with counsel? 20 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection to the 21 form of the question. 22 That misstates his testimony. 23 A.
I may have. 24 Q.
Do you know who that counsel would 25
have been?
45 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
Well, the Corporation Counsel was 3
present at virtually every one of my -- or 4
regularly at my morning meetings.
I had a 5
counsel to the Mayor, and they were present. 6
He was present at most of my morning meetings. 7 Q.
Was the meeting you described 8
earlier, was that a morning meeting? 9 A.
That, I don't recall, if it was a 10
morning meeting or a separate meeting.
But 11
generally, all matters of importance were 12
discussed at morning meetings. 13 Q.
When you say, the Corporation 14
Counsel was present, do you mean the 15
individual who holds that office or -- 16 A.
Yes. I had a meeting every 17 morning, usually at 8 o'clock. When I say, 18
"every morning," almost every morning. And 19
present at that meeting were the Corporation 20
Counsel or his deputy, if he wasn't able to be 21
there, counsel to the Mayor or his deputy, if 22
he wasn't able to be there, as well as Deputy 23
Mayors and various commissioners. 24 Q.
Who were these indi -- who was the 25
Corporation Counsel?
46 1 R. Giuliani 2 A.
At the time, it was Mike Hess. 3 Q.
And who was his deputy? 4 A.
I'm not sure who the -- exactly who 5
the deputy was at the time. 6 Q.
And who was counsel to the Mayor? 7 A.
Dennis Inyun (ph). 8 Q.
And who was his deputy? 9 A.
I'm not certain. 10 Q.
And are you saying one of these 11
four gentlemen was at the meeting that you 12
described with Diane McGrath-McKechnie and 13
Howard Safir? 14 A.
No. 15 MS. BIBERMAN: Objection. 16 A.
I said they were regularly at my 17
morning meeting. 18 Q.
But you don't know if any of them 19
were at the meeting that you described 20
earlier? 21 A.
I don't recall if they were. 22
Q. All right. So you don't know which 23
-- who -- which counsel you discussed your 24
decision with? 25 A.
Correct. What I'm describing to
47 1 R. Giuliani 2
you is my regular practice, so since I don't 3 have a distinct reco |